Jonathan, a story does not have to be true for people to die for it. People only have to sincerely believe it it's true. Strong conviction in a belief does not necessarily make it true. There are many religious people - of other religions - with strong convictions and who will die for their faith. Many Islamic extremists have strong conviction that they will enter heaven and receive 72 virgins if they blow up themselves to kill "infidels". So I don't think early christians being willing to die for their faith is a sound basis for concluding it must be true.
Island Man
JoinedPosts by Island Man
-
35
If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...
by Simon inmatthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.
for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.
so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.
-
-
-
38
What is the main reason the Watchtower Society baptize their children so young?
by RULES & REGULATIONS injesus was thirty was he was baptized.
today, you hear of young children getting baptized as young as 10 years old.
the parents, family and congregation think it's a wonderful idea that someone dedicates their life to jehovah at such a young age.
-
-
Island Man
I don't think it's for the purpose of removing them. Quite the contrary, I think they're essentially trying to entrap them in the cult.
Watchtower is a cult that puts a lot of emphasis on recruitment. The young children of JW parents are the lowest hanging fruits of the low hanging fruits, as it were. There is no easier pickings for the Watchtower to bolster its membership numbers than going after the very young, naive children of JW parents. Hook them in while they're young, inexperienced and easily swayed due to lack of life experience.
By dunking them in the water before the turbulent adolescent years, it makes it more difficult for them to leave the cult when they get older due to the prospect of losing all their JW family due to shunning. Baptizing pre-teens may be Watchtower's counter-measure to curbing the large numbers of unbaptized youths who leave the organization as they approach early adulthood. If they have the threat of shunning over their heads they're less likely to leave.
-
17
How do the JW's get around this scripture??
by Crazyguy inhebrews 9:27new international version (niv).
27 just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, .
.
-
-
Island Man
I think this is an example of why it is not wise to read individual scriptures divorced from their context. You cannot really read much into that verse by itself without considering its context. The verse doesn't mean what you think it means.
The scripture is not making the point that absolutely everyone will have to die once. The scripture is talking about what normally happens in our fallen world - people die once and face a judgement in their future resurrection. The writer was not suggesting that there wouldn't be people who will survive Armageddon and go on to live forever - which is an exceptional situation outside the point that the writer was trying to make.
You have to read the verse in its context and ask yourself how it fits with what was said before and after. When you separate a text from its context you get a con.
-
69
Science still doesn't have the answers on how life first appeared
by EndofMysteries insince so many athiests in this thread, and since i'm going to college, i was curious if what i would learn in biology would change my thoughts and show that life clearly and easily spontaneously happened.
just looking up the origins of dna or rna there is nothing conclusive.
for example, scientists today are able to manipulate life.
-
-
Island Man
In biology class, when talking about plants, going over how fruit trees make fruit sweet to attract animals to eat it so it spreads it's seeds, etc. There is some type of intelligence in that.
Your statement is also what is called an argument from ignorance or an argument from incredulity. Essentially you're saying that since you cannot comprehend how such a seamless symbiotic relationship between plants and animals can come about naturally without some intelligent intervention, then there really must be some intelligence behind it. But the mistake being made here is in assuming (subconsciously) that anything you cannot explain or comprehend naturally, must therefore not have a natural explanation.
You are assuming, subconsciously, that the natural reality around you must be limited by your own ability to comprehend it and therefore if you can't comprehend it then it must not be natural. This is a common flaw in reasoning engaged in by humans. This type of reasoning is also seen in newly contacted peoples who have lived in isolated forested regions for thousands of years and are encountering modern technology for the first time. Because of being completely ignorant of the laws of physics behind modern technology they are unable to comprehend how such modern technologies as cell phones or cameras work and so they resort to reasoning that it must be magic and the people who wield them must be gods. Because you do not know and cannot comprehend how life originated naturally without intelligence does not mean it did not originate without intelligence - it only means that you do not know how it originated without intelligent.
Always remember: natural reality is not limited by your ability to comprehend it naturally so that you should label that which you cannot naturally comprehend as being supernatural. If you do so, you'd be making the same mistake as those "primitive" peoples who, in their ignorance and inability to comprehend, label modern technology as magic.
-
69
Science still doesn't have the answers on how life first appeared
by EndofMysteries insince so many athiests in this thread, and since i'm going to college, i was curious if what i would learn in biology would change my thoughts and show that life clearly and easily spontaneously happened.
just looking up the origins of dna or rna there is nothing conclusive.
for example, scientists today are able to manipulate life.
-
-
Island Man
In biology class, when talking about plants, going over how fruit trees make fruit sweet to attract animals to eat it so it spreads it's seeds, etc. There is some type of intelligence in that.
I mean you no offense, but this statement by you reveals that you do not fully understand the concept of natural selection. Complexity and suitable "design" is "built" incrementally into a species over very long periods of time because those traits - and hence those genes - that give an organism an advantage at survival and reproduction naturally increase in frequency and degree as those organisms with those traits live longer and reproduce more. The environment filters those traits most suited to it.
But keep in mind the environment is not just the inanimate surroundings. It includes other animals that a species interacts with. Now at some point early in history plants might have produced seeds with quite a wide variety of traits - some plants would have produced seeds with food for the seed to use to start germinating. Of course the amount of food produced by each plant together with its seeds would vary. Also the sugar content of the food would also vary.
At the same time animals are also evolving in their environment which includes plants. Animals with the traits that enabled them to make use of plant food evolved to suit an environment of eating plant food. Naturally, the traits of taste would vary from animal to animal. Those animals that preferred the sweet taste produced by some plants together with their seeds would have had an advantage because they got higher energy food from those plants meaning they can go longer on less food because of the high energy content of sweeter fruits. So gradually the species evolved to prefer sweet fruits.
At the same time those plants who happened to produce sweet food with their seed now got a survival advantage because since animal species evolved to prefer that taste it means those plants get more feeders and hence more dispersers of their seeds. So those plants producing sweet tasty foods with their seeds naturally continued evolving along this line and gradually the food packaged with the seeds grew more and more since increasing size of the food package is the trait that would be advantageous in an environment of animal dispersers eating the plant food.
So plants and animals evolved in tandem with each other mutually selecting each others traits in an evolutionary ballet to arrive at the situation today where plants produce sweet fruits that animals are attracted to and spread the seeds.
Think of it this way: Evolution is not by chance. Evolution is actually by design - design without purposeful conscious intelligence. Design that occurs incrementally over a very long periods of time due to natural laws of physics interacting with statistical probabilities inherent in genetics and reproduction. The animal species is thus essentially "sculpted" by its environment. Think of sand dunes. They are shaped in a particular way, not by intelligence but by the action of the wind - by a natural, unintelligent, purposeless force. Think of a hurricane. A hurricane is actually an engine! It is designed by its environment - the prevailing atmospheric conditions and the laws of physics shape it into the marvelous symmetrical spiral engine that it is. You need to get rid of the notion that design necessarily requires purposeful intelligence. One of the fundamental principles at the heart of sustainable designs arising in the natural world is the concept of positive feedback loop. Once a phenomenon results in a positive feedback loop its existence continues and may even get greater. This is what happens with hurricanes.
-
69
Science still doesn't have the answers on how life first appeared
by EndofMysteries insince so many athiests in this thread, and since i'm going to college, i was curious if what i would learn in biology would change my thoughts and show that life clearly and easily spontaneously happened.
just looking up the origins of dna or rna there is nothing conclusive.
for example, scientists today are able to manipulate life.
-
-
Island Man
The notion that life on earth was created by other preexisting intelligent life, does not really answer the question of life's origin, does it? It's only kicking the proverbial can further down the road. What about the origin of the preexisting intelligent life that created life on earth? See, we're right back at square one only now we have to explain the origin of the preexisting intelligent life that created life. And if the answer to this is still even earlier preexisting intelligent life then we have to account for this too . . . and on and on ad infinitum. The buck will eventually have to stop at a simple, natural, scientifically plausible explanation for the origin of life. So the intelligent life creating life explanation is ultimately a non-answer.
While it is true that scientists do not know with certainty exactly how life began, there are however, multiple scientifically plausible hypotheses for the origin of life, that do not involve intelligent design of any kind. Put these on one end of a credibility balancing scale and on the other end put the very incredible, unprovable, unprecedented, scientifically implausible idea of a supernatural, eternal, all-powerful, uncreated, intelligent being. Now be honest with yourself: which direction should the credibility balancing scale tilt to? However inconceivable the idea of complex life originating from natural, non-intelligent means may seem to you, you would have to admit (if you really think about it honestly and objectively) that the idea of a supernatural origin is far more inconceivable/incredible.
The truth of the matter is using the supernatural to explain the origin of natural life is very illogical and irrational because the existence and origin of the supernatural begs a far greater explanation than the origin and existence of the natural life that it is being used to explain. By way of illustration, using the existence of a supernatural, uncreated, eternal deity to explain the origin of life is tantamount to a foolish man borrowing 1,000,000 dollars to pay off a 100 dollar debt instead of working overtime to raise the 100 dollars. Scientists are working to raise the proverbial 100 dollars. Theists lazily go into a further debt of 1,000,000 dollars to pay off the 100 dollar debt - all the while telling themselves they're no longer in debt and denying it whenever anyone points to the fact that they're now 1,000,000 dollars in debt. LOL.
-
94
New JW video, song and dance
by Listener inthe current jws do not cease to amaze.
here's their latest video on youtube and straight from bethel.. there is a lot of work involved in this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwou6e5vwbo .
-
-
Island Man
But in all honesty, this isn't so bad compared to what I've seen JWs do at a JW talent show involving all the congregations in a circuit.
Let's just say I've seen JW congregations put on skits where they humorously parody bible stories in a very humorous way (think "Saturday Night Live" or "Mad TV") that seems to deny any claim that they reverence the scriptures.
-
94
New JW video, song and dance
by Listener inthe current jws do not cease to amaze.
here's their latest video on youtube and straight from bethel.. there is a lot of work involved in this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwou6e5vwbo .
-
-
Island Man
Talk about being no part of the world and not following worldly trends and fads . . .
-
16
WTS reform - is it possible?
by LoveUniHateExams inin threads concerning islam i've consistently argued for reforming the religion.
it unfortunately has pre-enlightenment doctrines and practices, or at least there exists pre-enlightenment interpretation of koranic scripture that support such doctrines and practices.
in a lesser way, and on a lesser scale, the wts too is pre-enlightenment in a sense.
-
-
Island Man
It's already happening.
Let's be real, Watchtower does change its teachings and policies. We can clearly see efforts on their part to appear more moderate and less extremist to the public. This shows they are aware of their extremism. We have seen reform in the blood issue where they now permit members to have what they call secondary fractions of blood components.
I think that reform will take place/is taking place very gradually without them making any public noise that they are reforming. They can't be seen as acknowledging that they have been very extremist in the past, so they will reform very slowly under the guise of "Jehovah's chariot moving ahead" and getting a clearer understanding of the scriptures as time goes on, and while avoiding use of the term "reform".
They have no choice but to reform in order to remain relevant in this increasingly more enlightened world where bigotry, hate-speech and other disgusting practices are becoming less and less tolerable by society. And they know that they can always spin the scriptures to justify taking a more lenient position on matters they were hardliners about in the past, and all - most - JWs will just blindly go along in the name of loyalty to "the channel that Jehovah is using at this time".
Once it becomes apparent to Watchtower that a hard-line position is more detrimental to their recruitment efforts and is giving them very bad publicity - once it becomes apparent to them that a hard-line position is more of a liability to them than an asset, they will reform that position. We can help in that process by continuing to vocally sensitize and educate the public about their very damaging hard-line policies and practices that destroy families and even result in loss of life.
-
16
What will JW.org / Watchtower be like in 15 years?
by jw07 inover the past few days i've been reading and watching bill and melinda gates speak about their plans for a better world by 2030. they bet that due to technology and the compassion of people the world should improve more in the next 15 years than it has in all of history.
specifically lower child mortality rate, eradication of polio and guinea worm among other diseases, improvement of standards of living, greater access to education etc.. i'm a realist, so i'm not looking for miracles, but i believe most of these things are possible given the level of success they have reaped in other endeavors, and naturally emerging tech being used to make some of these projections possible.. you can see that the world is actually improving in many areas if you seek out the good news stories and statistics and look beyond the watchtower friendly fear porn about terrorism, and potential dangers from culturally diverse nations around the globe.
for instance 2014 had the lowest fatal airline accident rate in history despite the hyping of the ill fated malaysian airlines crashes.
-
-
Island Man
If things get a lot better, the Watchtower and consequently JWs, would be like:
"See how things are getting better? That means any minute now the governments would make a proclamation of peace and security signalling very imminent destruction for this old system under Satan's rule."
But if things get worse, they would be like:
"See how things are getting worse? That means we are very very very deep in the time of the end and Jehovah will bring an end to this system of things any day now. it is obvious for all to see that this system of things has very very very little time left!"